So painfully true. I have questioned a few men on why they haven't taken to the streets or chosen to get involved with protests about women and women's safety. Some have said it doesn't affect them directly, or say they would never do such a thing, and turn away, but others, no matter what their reasoning, visibly squirm with discomfort - I believe it is shame. Shame and embarrassment stop them from taking a stand against the patriarchy that has shaped and now harms our society. It is time for them to 'man up'(!) and show up - it is vital for all to do so.
Once women in general realize that, we can start moving on.
But as long as women have these expectations that the GOOD ONES will do something, you will be disappointed.
They simply don't give af because women do not count as humans worthy of the same concern men do, and citing mothers, sisters, aunts, etc. means nothing.
I think we need to work to change that. Women are not at the source of the problem. Men are. So only men can fix it. I think we need to make them see that and encourage the men who do see it to challenge and educate other men.
I think your goal is noble and you do care, but unfortunately that is not how males and reality work.
You cannot force men to care about things that they do not care about. It is simply impossible.
If they wanted to, they would.
Males are not reticent about the things that they do care about, that is, their own interests.
There is thousands of years of history that prove this, and you cannot ignore this in pursuit of unrealistic goals.
So, any attempt to force men to care will fail.
If you think you can convince them to stop watching porn and playing video games and do something, I wish you luck.
Maybe start with the men in Afghanistan and see where you get. Or start with the men who pay thousands to Andrew Tate so he can teach them to be a rapist like him.
I agree. We can’t force men to care. But there are some who genuinely do. They are absolutely not the majority. The majority, as you say, don’t care. That’s why I wrote this piece. But I think there are some who have blind spots and when they realize their own complicity will want to behave differently.
I am a man and I DO care because I was taught to care—for EVERYONE’S pain and suffering BY WOMEN. (Other men “talking to me” did not teach me empathy and feminism.) The suffering of others DOES affect me. Have you NEVER known a loving, caring, empathetic man in your life. We do exist. Many women encourage us to speak up. In my experience (72 and counting), you are an outlier among feminist women. Accusing me of trolling is rich because YOU are the one I see trolling in these discussions. I see now that you have an ax to grind and grind away on other women you feel are misguided and generally also on men—hence the trolling. What’s the word for defending one’s flaws by accusing others of the same flaws? Trump does it a lot. We’re all flawed in some way and should cut one another some slack. Try putting out more love than anger. Maybe? Sometimes? It will really help with the whole ending the patriarchy thing.
I don’t like snark and animosity, but it is you who are being aggressive. We men who are working to be allies are being ASKED to enter the ongoing discussion of the struggle BY WOMEN. Who are you to summarily send us away? I, for one, will not be going away for a few more years. ✌🏽♥️🎶🏳️🌈🌍
Well put Michael. We don't need to troll each other, we need to support anyone who works in unison to bring about change. Substack is a great place to do this. A great way to expand the discussion is to Recommend each other, and to restack any intelligent comment - with an intelligent comment of one's own. Another option for those of us who publish is to Crosspost, Guest Post, Interview...... It is for this reason I have Interviewed Monique - Publishing this week on @thiscreativeadventure.com Perhaps you'd also be interested in promoting her ?
Kat, you are correct, but not entirely. For there ARE Men who Care, Men who realize that we are ALL affected. To brand every Male as you do here, so Publicly, is a brilliant tactic to turn those who Care into Those Who Act. Let's take this further...... How would you suggest we do that ?
The Patriarchy, Amie ? Male Dominance as driven by Religious Dogma ? Surely that's where the damage is born. Attitudes inculcated over thousands of years..... Yes let us take that stand together, you, me, everyone who understands just how vital this is
Thank you for this. Just yesterday, my son’s girlfriend revealed that she was ruffied at a college freshman party at a bar in London last year. She said,”I’m usually very careful about watching my drink, but I looked away for two seconds and then I was vomiting in a corner and didn’t know how I got home.” She responded as if it were HER fault. 😔 I can’t believe we are still here. And all those men on those chat groups should be trolled by a task force like they do with child pornographers. It’s disgusting. Side-bar…I’m with you on the sun coming out in Paris for 2 days being “too good to be true.”. 😘 it was glorious while it lasted. xx
That was one of the thing that was so refreshing about Gisèle--she refused to feel ashamed. That is rare. I wrote a book about Trump and Women and what most pained me when I was going through the interviews with the women--dozens and dozens and dozens of them--there was not a single one--really not one--who didn't question herself in some way, her behavior, what she was wearing, etc. I was reading the interviews back to back and it was clear that Trump had a pattern of behavior and it had nothing to do with the women themselves--he would have responded that way to any woman who he found attractive in that particular circumstance. Women so often blame themselves--we are conditioned to do that--but we are not responsible for the behavior of the men who assault us.
It bugs the shivving lit out of me that women have to deal with this horrible treatment. I have a younger sister, I have many female friends, I had a mother, who is--alas--long gone, and I had some damn good female teachers in elementary school--wonderful women--etc.
I can't imagine how effed up Dominique Peloquot must be to have drugged his wife and let a bunch of sick guys have at her. He must be an incredibly sick man to do such a thing.
Men who treat women badly make it harder for men and women to have close relationships, whether as friends or lovers. And close relationships are a most important part of our humanity.
My mother has been gone since 2000. She was a wonderful human being. Because of her dreams, I got to spend the year I was 12 in Paris--along with the rest of my family of origin--which was a truly wonderful year for all of us, during which I learned french, an amazing process, got to see much of France, much of Europe, and much of what I like to call our Mother Country (England). Here's a very short story about my mother, taking a walk with her toddler son (me) https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/The-home-forum/2020/0805/heeding-her-invitation-six-decades-later
« Women’s marches? Men are always in the minority there. » My gay friend explained it by saying we each have our own battles to fight and while he is appreciative that women show up for his cause, it is unreasonable to expect the same from the gay community. He is just one man, but numbers show that his opinion is fairly global.
I'm so sorry to read this. I empathise with you deeply.
I never married. Never had kids. I'm 56 and will never live under the same roof as a man again. I'm not sure I will ever have sex again. I peaked at 16 and basically distrust men as a whole. My dreams were normal...find a good man and have children. I gave up on the children part at around 38 and gave up on the man part 3 years ago. It's a strange feeling to realise your lifelong dreams since age 13 were in vain.
I was never badly abused, I'm not vengeful and bitter due to experience, I just side-stepped the whole thing due to observing my environment. I travelled a lot. In India I constantly saw absolutely gorgeous women in beautiful saris working, looking after children, sweeping, cooking, smiling, while the unattractive men sat in the street, slumped in corners stoned on hashish, or stood around taunting me in their childish vulgar manner, and it I then saw disparity in every country I visited but just slightly less obvious.
One gorgeous young Indian woman told me her husband had recently died. I said "I'm very sorry" and she just gave a little shrug.
I feel so incredibly sad for young women today that are embarking on their dream of family as I know it's even more dangerous for them now that violent porn is normalised.
I've asked for years 'if Men were a product that came with buyer reviews and realistic safety warnings who on earth would buy one?'
Talking to a male friend lastnight about Gisèle Pelicot and why men don't talk, he said "it's an unspoken rule amongst men that you don't step in you don't say a thing until it's time to take the woman to hospital". He couldn't say why. He said it's just an unspoken rule...."you don't talk".
This whole serial drugged raping does my head in. Extracting bits of your piece and responding as best I can.
“What the hell is going on?”
I ranted in my repost of this article about how this insanity is anti-life.
This abuse SO extreme it attacks us at our core as we empathic types of people try not to imagine the brutal sadistic nature of these rapes.
“Why are men so broken?”
Amazing question and I am stumped on where to start.
What is actually working at the moment for men?
I can easily extrapolate and extend the 10 year serial drugged raping of Gisele by 100+ neighbours to corporate mass rape and pillage of all the worlds eco systems and all people everywhere for money.
This then easily extends to the live streamed genocide in Gaza and West Bank about to hit 15 months long and it’s beyond insane what is happening there now. How many children killed? How many with missing limbs?
How did we get here?
Every explanation seems, hallow, petty and stupid and pointless.
We are here, this has happened and is happening still.
I see this as a real sign of the times and a serious breakdown in our societies that this serial drugged raping is normalized. Evil is here.
“And why do they hate women so damn much?”
God, surely you have deep dark black hate for all women to rape a drugged one?
The idea that you could hate someone you barely know and that she embodies all women and you conspire with other men to serially rape her and by extension all women everywhere.
Hells bells this is insanely sick shit.
“Because that is the only explanation for this kind of thing.”
“A desire to so thoroughly abase and denigrate someone can only come out of deep loathing, no?
Maybe this is Hannah Arendt‘s banality of evil?
Seems so.
Here are some extracts I found from a quick search -
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
“In her report for The New Yorker, and later published in her 1963 book Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil, Arendt expressed how disturbed she was by Eichmann — but for reasons that might not be expected.”
“Far from the monster she thought he’d be, Eichmann was instead a rather bland, “terrifyingly normal” bureaucrat. He carried out his murderous role with calm efficiency not due to an abhorrent, warped mindset, but because of “a curious, quite authentic inability to think.”
“His evil actions, Arendt noted, could not be traced to any particularity of wickedness, pathology or ideological conviction in the doer, whose only personal distinction was a perhaps extraordinary shallowness.”
“For Arendt, he embodied
the dilemma between the unspeakable horror of the deeds and the undeniable ludicrousness of the man who perpetrated them.
His actions were defined not so much by thought, but by the absence of thought — convincing Arendt of the “banality of evil.””
“The banality of evil: evil is not monstrous, it takes place under the guise of ‘normality’”
“Rather, evil is perpetuated when immoral principles become normalized over time by people who do not think about things from the standpoint of others.”
“Evil becomes commonplace; it becomes the everyday. Ordinary people — going about their everyday lives — become complicit actors in systems that perpetuate evil.”
“Arendt had Nazi Germany as her template, but argued systemic oppression and the gradual normalization of evil can occur anywhere, any time, and at any scale.”
“Can you think of anything you’re desensitized to today?”
Mr Everyman rapist Dominique Pelicot normalised drugged raping of his wife and ordinary neighbouring men became willing complicit actors who joined in with the conspiracy to cover up of the drugged raping as it was fun while it lasted.
It definitely seems to fit, allowing, facilitating, fostering and enabling evil to commence, continue and escalate.
It resonates with my other observation that POTUS 47 normalises psychopathic behaviour by leading by example. He acts and implements racist, xenophobic, misogynistic policies and decisions and others are inspired by it. And around we go all frothing together to greater and worse acts.
Long-time feminist man here—ever since witnessing my mother’s and sisters’ oppression first hand, reading my mother’s copy of The Second Sex, the first edition of Our Bodies, Our Selves & Ms Magazine, and being informed by my female freak-friends in the early 70s that marriage was a tool of the patriarchy.
I lead with these “credentials” because you are correct: most men have not gotten with the program, and many have retrenched—as shown by the current politics of the US.
There has been a lot of reassessment, disagreement and backsliding in the movement. I’ve been married 40 years to a brilliant, feminist woman, so marriage, at least—restructured, and with loads of personal struggle all around—has been partially rehabilitated, but there are still a lot of issues to resolve, basic equity goals to be met.
There are fundamental divisions among women themselves. Feminism itself is sometimes a divisive word. I get a lot of mixed messages. Some women have mirrored what I’ve heard from people of color: we don’t need our oppressors to (patronizingly) “fix” the problem. I have been given the stink-eye from LOTS of women at women’s marches in San Francisco. I accept the reality that we men cannot be in the vanguard of feminism no matter how strong our commitment is, that we must study the art of the ally, signal our “virtue” when it strengthens women’s sense of safety and strength, enlighten other men when we can, and vehemently oppose the actions of what seems at this point to be the asshole majority.
Because of this, I look to the leadership of women. I will be at the “People’s March” on January 18, of my own volition. But if it was going to be a “Women’s March”, as originally planned, I would only have attended under the leadership and at the behest of the women in my life. If the women gathering to protest drug rape in France want more men at their gatherings—which some may not want—they need to make that clear to the men who are their allies. I hope they will.
Rape—as horrific as it is ubiquitous—is just one head of the patriarchal beast. In my Humboldt opinion, ALL the violence of war and crime comes from patriarchy. The post linked here elaborates on this, and the poem that follows illustrates some of the realities.
Okay. This is the mixed message thing. The original article to which I was responding was, Where Are All the Good Men? My response was to that. Your response was to me, not the author, and not to anything I said in my response.
I have and do “talk to other men” (other men are likely reading this thread). As a health teacher, sexuality educator, and history teacher I have talked to thousands of men, while they were young and still forming their beliefs, about how to be better men. I understand your assumption—and your anger.
I have not hijacked the conversation. Anyone can see I am a man and scroll past my contribution if they wish to assume I am a troll. I’d ask why you did not. Was there anything I could have said as a man that would have been acceptable?
I get plenty of attention and don’t need to troll for it.
I think the 70,000 men mentioned in the article represent the problem. I believe sexism, misogyny, and the patriarchy harm EVERYONE, including both my son and my daughter. But, even though women are harmed far more and worse, we cannot survive separately, so ending the harm is required for all of our children’s futures.
If I am the problem, what man is not? One who is silent? Who only speaks with other men—an approach to allyship and feminism that is itself a problem and gets us nowhere? I understand wanting men to just “go away”, but that is not a solution for the future and is not going to happen. I hope you have read this, and I will trouble you no further—but please do not read anything else I write (it will be marked with my name and face).
From the original article:
“And you know what I’ve noticed? That the vast majority of the articles, columns, blogs, social media posts—you name it—are written by women. Why?
We all seem to find it natural that women are more interested in this story. I think that is problematic. Women are the victims, both in the Pelicot case and in the Telegram group. Which means that WE CAN’T FIX THE PROBLEM. Only men can. So they should be the ones talking about it.
It’s time to stop letting men—including the “good guys”—off the hook.”
You seem to want to let me off the hook. I will be “going away” pretty soon here in my old age, but I will be leaving behind a son who, unlike my father (a typical racist/misogynist of his generation) is committed to equality for women (and all people), and to giving up any privileges gained through patriarchy, and a lesbian daughter who actually likes reasonable, caring men, and appreciates many of them as partners, colleagues, friends, and allies. I think this is what progress looks like.
My apologies to you any others who feel I’m hijacking this discussion. We must find a way to live together in peace and love. There ARE A Few Good Men. We ALL need there to be more. So I will persist the best I can for a few more years.
You raise some really interesting points here. Thank you. Of course it's true, that not all women see this in the same light. I can understand that there may be women out there who don't want men to march with them. Given your history with these issues, you clearly don't need me to tell you that there are other ways to help change the culture, many of which you, personally, are already doing. We need more men to follow in your footsteps. But it occurs to me--why are men not organizing their own marches against this? A men's march against rape culture, for example.
I think rape is a "gift" to males' physical obsessions from the patriarchic three-class hierarchical social organization of the Indo-Europeans who conquered Europe, then the world. King-priests on the top. Warriors in the middle. Women and slaves on the bottom as sub-human bodies sans mind.
This ranking they said they received from the "Sky Gods".
Slavery was worldwide because the Indo-Europeans had horses and compound bows both of which were their equivalent of jets and tanks as they rode into villages and city states, and shot the subhuman with their equivalent of modern guns.
Their economies were plunder economies -- stealing from others. While stealing, they raped and murdered.
In the transition to Christianity, in the very early days, the priests would bless theft. Until they actually read the ten commandments and the Shema, the two commandments that sum up the ten (briefly "Love God and love your neighbor").
That made Christianity a problem for males so they covered over the Word of God that banned rape with, yes, you got it -- patriarchy. So now we have men in dresses or priest kings of the Indo-Europeanized "ex-slavery civilizations" ruling over churches that are supposed to teach the agape love of Christ ("Cast the first stone.").
Further, any Empire or oligarchy that seeks to overturn another nation will weaken it from the inside. Easier to conquer. It will create themes or riffs that man (especially woman) is material, without spirit or soul.
This brings back to the mind of males that 3-tiered hierarchy of rights (males)-no rights (females).
Do not these 70,000 males think females are "bodies without minds", subhuman, disposable -- existing solely to serve males?
Neo-Slavery of the Third Kind.
More seriously, though, this objectification is a distancing, a despising, a creation of a locus or location of violence and violation "over there" away from the male self. A faux payhological locus of Death -- over there, far from males. Synonyms of "stuff over there, not here": weakness, emotion/tears/compassion/agape love [love your neighbor].
It is, then, a pathological way of dealing with human death, their male death --by displacing it onto the "Other" allegedly over there. Separate from the male self. Genderize death [females age, males don't]. A Coward's-Way-Out (of the death of the Self).
Acts of violence [towards females] covering or hiding unresolved, a cringing male fear of oblivion. A faux, pathological way to feel power at least during rape.[the reason for serial rape/serial murder].
"Powerful" when raping the weak. [That's not a true resolution of death. Christ is the resolution. He as God and sinless man conquered death. (That's a mystery. Dive in.)
But notice, "someone" has done a thing with their thoughts. These males are now incapable of true fidelity in marriage, incapable of love and agape love. Incapable of holding their society together.
The better for some to conquer that nation from the outside, having "Hugh Hefnered" them on the inside of their minds -- acculturating them to slavery of their females, wives, daughters, grandmother's, grandchildren.
A society or civilization made weak from within. Ripe for chaos, for lawlessness.
I can’t listen to the nonsense. So I tune it out. Gleefully pornify all the men, and a large percentage will act badly. Hetero men and pornography don’t mix well. But keep pushing porno on your sons, and keep wondering why the roofies, sex-trafficking and assaults keep getting more frequent. You don’t want to see the truth because it conflicts with sex-positive ideology.
Porn was discussed at length at the trial. It played a significant role for many of the men. But not all of them. It's definitely a huge contributing factor, but it's not the whole story.
Also, all porn is not the same. There is a growing body of feminist porn, in which women are not treated like objects and female pleasure is as important as male pleasure.
Yes! Because it kills the inner … honour inside…the psychic crime of seeing the language they use in the video titles… 10 seconds on a site like that is traumatic to process when you realize the full implications… living nightmare every boy goes through… now we smile through the damage like women have always done … secretly relishing this, many ignore that subconscious reason for looking the other way …like the bishops in the churches … this is heartbreaking to find as a man… patriarchy stems from men’s chivalrous nature but has its abuses…but pornography destroys that kind of naivety necessary for regular simple men. They need the context of another soul beside them to process female sexuality. In it’s porno form it’s such a violation somehow - of the consumer…so many become variously deformed by it. It’s the biggest child abuse scandal in human history and will be remembered as such. Every damn kid getting exposed….shameful the past 20 years
Different for gay men - there’s no woman involved! Pantomiming total surrender- a well kept secret from him till that moment- stealing his birthright to learn with a woman who wants him like men have for 4 million years. And as for the men with a lot of inner demons - they visit their anger on women unfortunately
And just…how dare they? How many parents were betrayed who didn’t know what was going on in their poor teens mind. I would have killed myself. This type of language wasnt a thought. I was happy. The vibe of this stuff is so awful
Yes. But you forget how much more men fear getting caught these days than they used to, and how much more husbands used to consider their wives to be property.
And the fact that it’s never publically addressed is a story in itself. Major ideological blindness and denial to let this carry on. It’s survivable but it creates a lot of hidden misery
Lots of women agree with me: pornography caused the Gisele Picolt rapes. That’s what twisted these men. I’d bet my life. I do talk to men. I’m Trying to raise awareness of a problem.
Men and women ie. people are the same for millennia yes. Why cultivate the worst in men with the current situation? Raising boys on porno is a violation of their consent. It’s abuse. That is not derailing- that is very relevant. I’ve seen it happen in my lifetime.
I am impressed by Monique's determination to bring this issue to a wider audience, that would enable change. This is why I have interviewed her (Publishing @thiscreativeadventure.com on Friday tis week). I seek other writers that we may together bring about that change. Please contact me publicly via my site or privately via mcb25tca@aol.com
So painfully true. I have questioned a few men on why they haven't taken to the streets or chosen to get involved with protests about women and women's safety. Some have said it doesn't affect them directly, or say they would never do such a thing, and turn away, but others, no matter what their reasoning, visibly squirm with discomfort - I believe it is shame. Shame and embarrassment stop them from taking a stand against the patriarchy that has shaped and now harms our society. It is time for them to 'man up'(!) and show up - it is vital for all to do so.
Men do not care because it does not affect them.
It is as simple as that.
Once women in general realize that, we can start moving on.
But as long as women have these expectations that the GOOD ONES will do something, you will be disappointed.
They simply don't give af because women do not count as humans worthy of the same concern men do, and citing mothers, sisters, aunts, etc. means nothing.
That's the cold, hard truth.
I think we need to work to change that. Women are not at the source of the problem. Men are. So only men can fix it. I think we need to make them see that and encourage the men who do see it to challenge and educate other men.
I think your goal is noble and you do care, but unfortunately that is not how males and reality work.
You cannot force men to care about things that they do not care about. It is simply impossible.
If they wanted to, they would.
Males are not reticent about the things that they do care about, that is, their own interests.
There is thousands of years of history that prove this, and you cannot ignore this in pursuit of unrealistic goals.
So, any attempt to force men to care will fail.
If you think you can convince them to stop watching porn and playing video games and do something, I wish you luck.
Maybe start with the men in Afghanistan and see where you get. Or start with the men who pay thousands to Andrew Tate so he can teach them to be a rapist like him.
Good luck.
I agree. We can’t force men to care. But there are some who genuinely do. They are absolutely not the majority. The majority, as you say, don’t care. That’s why I wrote this piece. But I think there are some who have blind spots and when they realize their own complicity will want to behave differently.
Discussion, and Broadcasting. Encourage Both, encourage the growth of Awareness.....
You. Are. WRONG.
I am a man and I DO care because I was taught to care—for EVERYONE’S pain and suffering BY WOMEN. (Other men “talking to me” did not teach me empathy and feminism.) The suffering of others DOES affect me. Have you NEVER known a loving, caring, empathetic man in your life. We do exist. Many women encourage us to speak up. In my experience (72 and counting), you are an outlier among feminist women. Accusing me of trolling is rich because YOU are the one I see trolling in these discussions. I see now that you have an ax to grind and grind away on other women you feel are misguided and generally also on men—hence the trolling. What’s the word for defending one’s flaws by accusing others of the same flaws? Trump does it a lot. We’re all flawed in some way and should cut one another some slack. Try putting out more love than anger. Maybe? Sometimes? It will really help with the whole ending the patriarchy thing.
I don’t like snark and animosity, but it is you who are being aggressive. We men who are working to be allies are being ASKED to enter the ongoing discussion of the struggle BY WOMEN. Who are you to summarily send us away? I, for one, will not be going away for a few more years. ✌🏽♥️🎶🏳️🌈🌍
Well put Michael. We don't need to troll each other, we need to support anyone who works in unison to bring about change. Substack is a great place to do this. A great way to expand the discussion is to Recommend each other, and to restack any intelligent comment - with an intelligent comment of one's own. Another option for those of us who publish is to Crosspost, Guest Post, Interview...... It is for this reason I have Interviewed Monique - Publishing this week on @thiscreativeadventure.com Perhaps you'd also be interested in promoting her ?
Regards, Maurice 79 and counting....
Who are you talking to?
GO TALK TO THE MEN WHO ARE THE PROBLEM.
STOP DERAILING OUR CONVERSATIONS.
Kat, I want to hear from the men. I find it useful to understand their perspective.
Kat, you are correct, but not entirely. For there ARE Men who Care, Men who realize that we are ALL affected. To brand every Male as you do here, so Publicly, is a brilliant tactic to turn those who Care into Those Who Act. Let's take this further...... How would you suggest we do that ?
The Patriarchy, Amie ? Male Dominance as driven by Religious Dogma ? Surely that's where the damage is born. Attitudes inculcated over thousands of years..... Yes let us take that stand together, you, me, everyone who understands just how vital this is
Thank you for this. Just yesterday, my son’s girlfriend revealed that she was ruffied at a college freshman party at a bar in London last year. She said,”I’m usually very careful about watching my drink, but I looked away for two seconds and then I was vomiting in a corner and didn’t know how I got home.” She responded as if it were HER fault. 😔 I can’t believe we are still here. And all those men on those chat groups should be trolled by a task force like they do with child pornographers. It’s disgusting. Side-bar…I’m with you on the sun coming out in Paris for 2 days being “too good to be true.”. 😘 it was glorious while it lasted. xx
That was one of the thing that was so refreshing about Gisèle--she refused to feel ashamed. That is rare. I wrote a book about Trump and Women and what most pained me when I was going through the interviews with the women--dozens and dozens and dozens of them--there was not a single one--really not one--who didn't question herself in some way, her behavior, what she was wearing, etc. I was reading the interviews back to back and it was clear that Trump had a pattern of behavior and it had nothing to do with the women themselves--he would have responded that way to any woman who he found attractive in that particular circumstance. Women so often blame themselves--we are conditioned to do that--but we are not responsible for the behavior of the men who assault us.
It bugs the shivving lit out of me that women have to deal with this horrible treatment. I have a younger sister, I have many female friends, I had a mother, who is--alas--long gone, and I had some damn good female teachers in elementary school--wonderful women--etc.
I can't imagine how effed up Dominique Peloquot must be to have drugged his wife and let a bunch of sick guys have at her. He must be an incredibly sick man to do such a thing.
Men who treat women badly make it harder for men and women to have close relationships, whether as friends or lovers. And close relationships are a most important part of our humanity.
My mother has been gone since 2000. She was a wonderful human being. Because of her dreams, I got to spend the year I was 12 in Paris--along with the rest of my family of origin--which was a truly wonderful year for all of us, during which I learned french, an amazing process, got to see much of France, much of Europe, and much of what I like to call our Mother Country (England). Here's a very short story about my mother, taking a walk with her toddler son (me) https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/The-home-forum/2020/0805/heeding-her-invitation-six-decades-later
GO TALK TO OTHER MEN
I'm interested in what men have to say about this.
You have EVERY right to be angry. And it's unacceptable for this to be allowed to exist on the internet.
And I 100% agree that we men must step up to the lead in stamping out this horrible shit.
The good men are here. We are still too oblivious, but we are awakening and learning.
We've got work to do.
« Women’s marches? Men are always in the minority there. » My gay friend explained it by saying we each have our own battles to fight and while he is appreciative that women show up for his cause, it is unreasonable to expect the same from the gay community. He is just one man, but numbers show that his opinion is fairly global.
I'm so sorry to read this. I empathise with you deeply.
I never married. Never had kids. I'm 56 and will never live under the same roof as a man again. I'm not sure I will ever have sex again. I peaked at 16 and basically distrust men as a whole. My dreams were normal...find a good man and have children. I gave up on the children part at around 38 and gave up on the man part 3 years ago. It's a strange feeling to realise your lifelong dreams since age 13 were in vain.
I was never badly abused, I'm not vengeful and bitter due to experience, I just side-stepped the whole thing due to observing my environment. I travelled a lot. In India I constantly saw absolutely gorgeous women in beautiful saris working, looking after children, sweeping, cooking, smiling, while the unattractive men sat in the street, slumped in corners stoned on hashish, or stood around taunting me in their childish vulgar manner, and it I then saw disparity in every country I visited but just slightly less obvious.
One gorgeous young Indian woman told me her husband had recently died. I said "I'm very sorry" and she just gave a little shrug.
I feel so incredibly sad for young women today that are embarking on their dream of family as I know it's even more dangerous for them now that violent porn is normalised.
I've asked for years 'if Men were a product that came with buyer reviews and realistic safety warnings who on earth would buy one?'
Talking to a male friend lastnight about Gisèle Pelicot and why men don't talk, he said "it's an unspoken rule amongst men that you don't step in you don't say a thing until it's time to take the woman to hospital". He couldn't say why. He said it's just an unspoken rule...."you don't talk".
I hope you get some well earned sleep soon.
That last point is really interesting--and disheartening. But good to know. Thank you for commenting.
This whole serial drugged raping does my head in. Extracting bits of your piece and responding as best I can.
“What the hell is going on?”
I ranted in my repost of this article about how this insanity is anti-life.
This abuse SO extreme it attacks us at our core as we empathic types of people try not to imagine the brutal sadistic nature of these rapes.
“Why are men so broken?”
Amazing question and I am stumped on where to start.
What is actually working at the moment for men?
I can easily extrapolate and extend the 10 year serial drugged raping of Gisele by 100+ neighbours to corporate mass rape and pillage of all the worlds eco systems and all people everywhere for money.
This then easily extends to the live streamed genocide in Gaza and West Bank about to hit 15 months long and it’s beyond insane what is happening there now. How many children killed? How many with missing limbs?
How did we get here?
Every explanation seems, hallow, petty and stupid and pointless.
We are here, this has happened and is happening still.
I see this as a real sign of the times and a serious breakdown in our societies that this serial drugged raping is normalized. Evil is here.
“And why do they hate women so damn much?”
God, surely you have deep dark black hate for all women to rape a drugged one?
The idea that you could hate someone you barely know and that she embodies all women and you conspire with other men to serially rape her and by extension all women everywhere.
Hells bells this is insanely sick shit.
“Because that is the only explanation for this kind of thing.”
“A desire to so thoroughly abase and denigrate someone can only come out of deep loathing, no?
Maybe this is Hannah Arendt‘s banality of evil?
Seems so.
Here are some extracts I found from a quick search -
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
“In her report for The New Yorker, and later published in her 1963 book Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil, Arendt expressed how disturbed she was by Eichmann — but for reasons that might not be expected.”
“Far from the monster she thought he’d be, Eichmann was instead a rather bland, “terrifyingly normal” bureaucrat. He carried out his murderous role with calm efficiency not due to an abhorrent, warped mindset, but because of “a curious, quite authentic inability to think.”
“His evil actions, Arendt noted, could not be traced to any particularity of wickedness, pathology or ideological conviction in the doer, whose only personal distinction was a perhaps extraordinary shallowness.”
“For Arendt, he embodied
the dilemma between the unspeakable horror of the deeds and the undeniable ludicrousness of the man who perpetrated them.
His actions were defined not so much by thought, but by the absence of thought — convincing Arendt of the “banality of evil.””
“The banality of evil: evil is not monstrous, it takes place under the guise of ‘normality’”
“Rather, evil is perpetuated when immoral principles become normalized over time by people who do not think about things from the standpoint of others.”
“Evil becomes commonplace; it becomes the everyday. Ordinary people — going about their everyday lives — become complicit actors in systems that perpetuate evil.”
“Arendt had Nazi Germany as her template, but argued systemic oppression and the gradual normalization of evil can occur anywhere, any time, and at any scale.”
“Can you think of anything you’re desensitized to today?”
Mr Everyman rapist Dominique Pelicot normalised drugged raping of his wife and ordinary neighbouring men became willing complicit actors who joined in with the conspiracy to cover up of the drugged raping as it was fun while it lasted.
Gods we are in trouble as this is what we are.
Boy, I need to deep dive into Hannah’s work.
Source - https://philosophybreak.com/articles/hannah-arendt-on-standing-up-to-the-banality-of-evil/
I'm reading Eichmann in Jerusalem at the moment.
It is a very disturbing concept normalising evil.
It definitely seems to fit, allowing, facilitating, fostering and enabling evil to commence, continue and escalate.
It resonates with my other observation that POTUS 47 normalises psychopathic behaviour by leading by example. He acts and implements racist, xenophobic, misogynistic policies and decisions and others are inspired by it. And around we go all frothing together to greater and worse acts.
Bandy X. Lee calls it trump contagion.
Long-time feminist man here—ever since witnessing my mother’s and sisters’ oppression first hand, reading my mother’s copy of The Second Sex, the first edition of Our Bodies, Our Selves & Ms Magazine, and being informed by my female freak-friends in the early 70s that marriage was a tool of the patriarchy.
I lead with these “credentials” because you are correct: most men have not gotten with the program, and many have retrenched—as shown by the current politics of the US.
There has been a lot of reassessment, disagreement and backsliding in the movement. I’ve been married 40 years to a brilliant, feminist woman, so marriage, at least—restructured, and with loads of personal struggle all around—has been partially rehabilitated, but there are still a lot of issues to resolve, basic equity goals to be met.
There are fundamental divisions among women themselves. Feminism itself is sometimes a divisive word. I get a lot of mixed messages. Some women have mirrored what I’ve heard from people of color: we don’t need our oppressors to (patronizingly) “fix” the problem. I have been given the stink-eye from LOTS of women at women’s marches in San Francisco. I accept the reality that we men cannot be in the vanguard of feminism no matter how strong our commitment is, that we must study the art of the ally, signal our “virtue” when it strengthens women’s sense of safety and strength, enlighten other men when we can, and vehemently oppose the actions of what seems at this point to be the asshole majority.
Because of this, I look to the leadership of women. I will be at the “People’s March” on January 18, of my own volition. But if it was going to be a “Women’s March”, as originally planned, I would only have attended under the leadership and at the behest of the women in my life. If the women gathering to protest drug rape in France want more men at their gatherings—which some may not want—they need to make that clear to the men who are their allies. I hope they will.
Rape—as horrific as it is ubiquitous—is just one head of the patriarchal beast. In my Humboldt opinion, ALL the violence of war and crime comes from patriarchy. The post linked here elaborates on this, and the poem that follows illustrates some of the realities.
Thank you for your leadership and work.
https://open.substack.com/pub/michaelmallotbickford/p/bozo-robs-liquor-storesno-one-notices?r=cbs6v&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
Okay. This is the mixed message thing. The original article to which I was responding was, Where Are All the Good Men? My response was to that. Your response was to me, not the author, and not to anything I said in my response.
I have and do “talk to other men” (other men are likely reading this thread). As a health teacher, sexuality educator, and history teacher I have talked to thousands of men, while they were young and still forming their beliefs, about how to be better men. I understand your assumption—and your anger.
I have not hijacked the conversation. Anyone can see I am a man and scroll past my contribution if they wish to assume I am a troll. I’d ask why you did not. Was there anything I could have said as a man that would have been acceptable?
I get plenty of attention and don’t need to troll for it.
I think the 70,000 men mentioned in the article represent the problem. I believe sexism, misogyny, and the patriarchy harm EVERYONE, including both my son and my daughter. But, even though women are harmed far more and worse, we cannot survive separately, so ending the harm is required for all of our children’s futures.
If I am the problem, what man is not? One who is silent? Who only speaks with other men—an approach to allyship and feminism that is itself a problem and gets us nowhere? I understand wanting men to just “go away”, but that is not a solution for the future and is not going to happen. I hope you have read this, and I will trouble you no further—but please do not read anything else I write (it will be marked with my name and face).
From the original article:
“And you know what I’ve noticed? That the vast majority of the articles, columns, blogs, social media posts—you name it—are written by women. Why?
We all seem to find it natural that women are more interested in this story. I think that is problematic. Women are the victims, both in the Pelicot case and in the Telegram group. Which means that WE CAN’T FIX THE PROBLEM. Only men can. So they should be the ones talking about it.
It’s time to stop letting men—including the “good guys”—off the hook.”
You seem to want to let me off the hook. I will be “going away” pretty soon here in my old age, but I will be leaving behind a son who, unlike my father (a typical racist/misogynist of his generation) is committed to equality for women (and all people), and to giving up any privileges gained through patriarchy, and a lesbian daughter who actually likes reasonable, caring men, and appreciates many of them as partners, colleagues, friends, and allies. I think this is what progress looks like.
My apologies to you any others who feel I’m hijacking this discussion. We must find a way to live together in peace and love. There ARE A Few Good Men. We ALL need there to be more. So I will persist the best I can for a few more years.
Rematriation & Reparations.
You raise some really interesting points here. Thank you. Of course it's true, that not all women see this in the same light. I can understand that there may be women out there who don't want men to march with them. Given your history with these issues, you clearly don't need me to tell you that there are other ways to help change the culture, many of which you, personally, are already doing. We need more men to follow in your footsteps. But it occurs to me--why are men not organizing their own marches against this? A men's march against rape culture, for example.
Go talk to other men.
Stop hijacking conversations women have and derailing the issue, which men always do.
This is your way of trolling for attention.
You are the problem. Go away.
Thankyou
I think rape is a "gift" to males' physical obsessions from the patriarchic three-class hierarchical social organization of the Indo-Europeans who conquered Europe, then the world. King-priests on the top. Warriors in the middle. Women and slaves on the bottom as sub-human bodies sans mind.
This ranking they said they received from the "Sky Gods".
Slavery was worldwide because the Indo-Europeans had horses and compound bows both of which were their equivalent of jets and tanks as they rode into villages and city states, and shot the subhuman with their equivalent of modern guns.
Their economies were plunder economies -- stealing from others. While stealing, they raped and murdered.
In the transition to Christianity, in the very early days, the priests would bless theft. Until they actually read the ten commandments and the Shema, the two commandments that sum up the ten (briefly "Love God and love your neighbor").
That made Christianity a problem for males so they covered over the Word of God that banned rape with, yes, you got it -- patriarchy. So now we have men in dresses or priest kings of the Indo-Europeanized "ex-slavery civilizations" ruling over churches that are supposed to teach the agape love of Christ ("Cast the first stone.").
Further, any Empire or oligarchy that seeks to overturn another nation will weaken it from the inside. Easier to conquer. It will create themes or riffs that man (especially woman) is material, without spirit or soul.
This brings back to the mind of males that 3-tiered hierarchy of rights (males)-no rights (females).
Do not these 70,000 males think females are "bodies without minds", subhuman, disposable -- existing solely to serve males?
Neo-Slavery of the Third Kind.
More seriously, though, this objectification is a distancing, a despising, a creation of a locus or location of violence and violation "over there" away from the male self. A faux payhological locus of Death -- over there, far from males. Synonyms of "stuff over there, not here": weakness, emotion/tears/compassion/agape love [love your neighbor].
It is, then, a pathological way of dealing with human death, their male death --by displacing it onto the "Other" allegedly over there. Separate from the male self. Genderize death [females age, males don't]. A Coward's-Way-Out (of the death of the Self).
Acts of violence [towards females] covering or hiding unresolved, a cringing male fear of oblivion. A faux, pathological way to feel power at least during rape.[the reason for serial rape/serial murder].
"Powerful" when raping the weak. [That's not a true resolution of death. Christ is the resolution. He as God and sinless man conquered death. (That's a mystery. Dive in.)
But notice, "someone" has done a thing with their thoughts. These males are now incapable of true fidelity in marriage, incapable of love and agape love. Incapable of holding their society together.
The better for some to conquer that nation from the outside, having "Hugh Hefnered" them on the inside of their minds -- acculturating them to slavery of their females, wives, daughters, grandmother's, grandchildren.
A society or civilization made weak from within. Ripe for chaos, for lawlessness.
Sorry for all the typos. Btw France is Indo-European. The Franks were once known as superwarriors.
Corrected.12/30/24
I can’t listen to the nonsense. So I tune it out. Gleefully pornify all the men, and a large percentage will act badly. Hetero men and pornography don’t mix well. But keep pushing porno on your sons, and keep wondering why the roofies, sex-trafficking and assaults keep getting more frequent. You don’t want to see the truth because it conflicts with sex-positive ideology.
Porn was discussed at length at the trial. It played a significant role for many of the men. But not all of them. It's definitely a huge contributing factor, but it's not the whole story.
Also, all porn is not the same. There is a growing body of feminist porn, in which women are not treated like objects and female pleasure is as important as male pleasure.
I still say it’s traumatic for hetero men
Do you mean that porn is damaging to hetero men?
Yes! Because it kills the inner … honour inside…the psychic crime of seeing the language they use in the video titles… 10 seconds on a site like that is traumatic to process when you realize the full implications… living nightmare every boy goes through… now we smile through the damage like women have always done … secretly relishing this, many ignore that subconscious reason for looking the other way …like the bishops in the churches … this is heartbreaking to find as a man… patriarchy stems from men’s chivalrous nature but has its abuses…but pornography destroys that kind of naivety necessary for regular simple men. They need the context of another soul beside them to process female sexuality. In it’s porno form it’s such a violation somehow - of the consumer…so many become variously deformed by it. It’s the biggest child abuse scandal in human history and will be remembered as such. Every damn kid getting exposed….shameful the past 20 years
What do you mean when you say patriarchy stems from men’s chivalrous nature?
And not the other way around.
And do you think that process would be different if the films were respectful of women but still sexually explicit?
I'm also curious why you say it's damaging to hetero men. Do you think it's different for gay men or that gay porn is different?
Different for gay men - there’s no woman involved! Pantomiming total surrender- a well kept secret from him till that moment- stealing his birthright to learn with a woman who wants him like men have for 4 million years. And as for the men with a lot of inner demons - they visit their anger on women unfortunately
And just…how dare they? How many parents were betrayed who didn’t know what was going on in their poor teens mind. I would have killed myself. This type of language wasnt a thought. I was happy. The vibe of this stuff is so awful
Too many to ignore
It’s not just kids my generation too it’s a plague
You're not wrong that it's bad with the smartphone-porn kids, but at the same time the perps in this case were mostly of older generations than that.
I don't doubt that the problem used to be even worse 50 years ago, before women's rights really took hold.
We're hearing about it more now, because we're on the net more.
No no it’s worse now. That’s my point. Guaranteed all 50 were porno users
Yes. But you forget how much more men fear getting caught these days than they used to, and how much more husbands used to consider their wives to be property.
And the fact that it’s never publically addressed is a story in itself. Major ideological blindness and denial to let this carry on. It’s survivable but it creates a lot of hidden misery
Lots of women agree with me: pornography caused the Gisele Picolt rapes. That’s what twisted these men. I’d bet my life. I do talk to men. I’m Trying to raise awareness of a problem.
Men and women ie. people are the same for millennia yes. Why cultivate the worst in men with the current situation? Raising boys on porno is a violation of their consent. It’s abuse. That is not derailing- that is very relevant. I’ve seen it happen in my lifetime.
Men have been doing this for millenia, far before pornography, internet, video, or anything else existed.
It is innate.
Stop derailing conversations that women try to have.
Go talk to other men if you care so much.
It happened but people were more barred by the social constraints and … this sick shit didn’t occur to ppl
No there’s more predators now we’re breeding legions with porno!
I am impressed by Monique's determination to bring this issue to a wider audience, that would enable change. This is why I have interviewed her (Publishing @thiscreativeadventure.com on Friday tis week). I seek other writers that we may together bring about that change. Please contact me publicly via my site or privately via mcb25tca@aol.com
Brilliant, as always.
🙏